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moominmolly ([personal profile] moominmolly) wrote2007-10-30 09:17 am
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A neat article on parents who encourage their kids to learn lots, early. Let's hear it for just hanging the fuck out.

Yesterday, she helped me pick out birthday cards for her cousin Christopher, who's almost a month older than she is. But then she suggested a better way to wish him a happy birthday: "Send a email Kissafer? Send Kissafer birthday a email Kissafer?" Dude, I know she likes typing on the computer, but I didn't know she knew what email did.

Also, when I asked her in the parking lot of the store what she wanted to do when she get home, she told me "Natalie read in couch? Natalie read and snuggle in Mommy and Natalie's couch?" READ AND SNUGGLE. Yes, little girl, we can go home and read and snuggle in our couch.

[identity profile] signsoflife.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 02:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Some comments:

I'm not an anthropologist, but I do find the theory that our intelligence evolved to cope with complex social situations compelling; and my *intuition* is that challenging a child on an appropriate level socially is going to spark the development of an interconnected intelligence much more than rote memorization ever could.

I'm still sort of stunned to report that I *am* a teacher, and I believe that in my students I'm regularly confronted with the consequences of an entire educational system which has systematically rewarded them for rote memorization. Many of my students have never been challenged to integrate ideas in any significant way (and the smartest students have never been challenged at all, but that's a different issue.) It makes me want to kick things.

(So does the stuff about the effects of inequity.)

"It has never been able to afford rigorous scientific studies to document its performance." I find it deeply ironic that a program alleging to increase intelligence eschews science. My experience it that most people -- even very smart people -- are somewhat contemptuous of the scientific method; witness the number of "amusing" "duh" comments in re. scientific studies which confirm our intuition or political positions.

I know my parents took me in for an IQ test when I was pretty young (maybe kindergarten), for the purpose of getting me into some kind of gifted program -- based on the fact that I never attended such a program, I assume I "failed" the test. Make of that what you will in re. late bloomers (says the 33-year-old first-year.)

I find the emphasis on understanding the phonetic basis of written language interesting, as, of course, a large proportion of the world's population learns to read a language without phonetic elements (my recollection is that age to literacy is similar regardless of the conceptual underpinnings of the written language, and that comparative studies on the effect of different systems on later cognition found no difference, but I'm very far from being an expert on that.) That puts the wholly inappropriate and liminally racist comment about Austria having many more Nobel prize laureates than Japan in a different light, too. I realize it was meant as a throwaway comment on superbaby syndrome, but it really rankled.

I'm just going to nod for a minute.

[identity profile] moominmolly.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 02:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, that bit rankled me too (unsurprisingly). And your note about people who say "duh" to studies confirming their intuition or belief system ... yeah.

I find it deeply ironic that a program alleging to increase intelligence eschews science.

Well, from what I've heard some teachers say, that puts it unfortunately in line with a lot of K-12 schooling in this country. :/

Re: I'm just going to nod for a minute.

[identity profile] signsoflife.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 04:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm just dropping this in a comment so I don't forget: _The Singing Neanderthals:(subtitle)_. I just looked at the [Nature|Science] review outside the library, and, modulo some issues (he never acknowledges the thesis originated with Darwin, he focuses too much on primates, and the fossil and neurological evidence is outdated), the review recommends it for the lay reader and it looks fascinating.

Re: I'm just going to nod for a minute.

[identity profile] moominmolly.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 04:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh! Thank you, even if it's just so you don't forget. :)

Re: I'm just going to nod for a minute.

[identity profile] signsoflife.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 04:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, partly, I wanted not to forget to mention it to you.

Re: I'm just going to nod for a minute.

[identity profile] spinrabbit.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 11:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh, I love your paste-patterned edge decoration! Yaaay!

Re: I'm just going to nod for a minute.

[identity profile] signsoflife.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 11:50 pm (UTC)(link)

[identity profile] ukelele.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 03:09 pm (UTC)(link)
an entire educational system which has systematically rewarded them for rote memorization

See, this is funny, because people always say that school emphasizes rote memorization (and certainly I have met kids who get along because they are excellent memorizers despite other deficiencies), but the thing is, I teach Latin, where memorization is important, and most of my kids suck at it. At least at first. It's clearly a skill they've never been asked to develop explicitly.

Maybe this is because I'm in a fancy prep school and everyone hates memorization and spends their time on higher-order stuff. The alternative, that schools suck at that other stuff and they suck at inculcating memorization skills, is really too awful to contemplate.

[identity profile] ratatosk.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 06:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Maybe this is because I'm in a fancy prep school and everyone hates memorization and spends their time on higher-order stuff. The alternative, that schools suck at that other stuff and they suck at inculcating memorization skills, is really too awful to contemplate.

That's really interesting. I feel like most of my memorization skills were acquired shortly after I learned to talk. Starting when I was 2 or 3 mother did things like tell me her shopping lists before going to the grocery store and then using me instead of the list (I was as good as the paper list or better, I am told); kids that age tend to be way better at remembering things than anyone expects (or, often, wants) them to be.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the sucking happens early on, and by the time memorization comes up in school it gets approached as worklike and boring, so the kids muddle through supported by hovering parents.

[identity profile] moominmolly.livejournal.com 2007-10-31 03:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh. I'd never considered that my memorization skills were learned early, but my long digit recall always seemed like a product of my mother telling me to put myself to sleep by reciting (in my head) all the phone numbers I knew, in order.

[identity profile] signsoflife.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 07:06 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm an extremely novice teacher, and I went to a prep school myself, so I'm largely making inferences based on the results about the nature and quality of my students' preparation. Also, your students are younger than mine -- I teach college students.

That said . . . I think our student bodies differ greatly, possibly more in the kind and quality of their preparation than in their natural talents (though I'd also guess I have a broader range of natural talent in my class than you do.) And, specifically, I think you may be right that your students' preparation is more focused on higher-order learning. I can confirm that my students are very good at hearing and repeating information, but many of them stumble on analysis.

Also, my "better" students tend to have a *worse* time on the more rote exercises, for reasons that have been touched on elsewhere -- but I think the "better" students are less attentive to detail, and prioritize conceptual understanding. (I'm having a heck of a time with one student trying to convince him that no, I can't grade him on what we both know he knows -- I grade him on what he actually *writes*.)


[identity profile] fanw.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 03:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I know my parents took me in for an IQ test when I was pretty young (maybe kindergarten), for the purpose of getting me into some kind of gifted program -- based on the fact that I never attended such a program, I assume I "failed" the test. Make of that what you will in re. late bloomers (says the 33-year-old first-year.)

Officially, I flunked my kindergarten entrance exam. My birthday was just on the border of too young so they gave me a test. Apparently it included things like money, which as a five-year-old I didn't have much experience with, and I said a nickel was worth more than a dime. (Hey, it's bigger!) Of course, my mom walked me out the door with the teacher and had me point out and name the trees in the front yard. I got in that year.

[identity profile] ukelele.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 05:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I think officially I failed kindergarten.

[identity profile] ratatosk.livejournal.com 2007-10-30 06:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I find the emphasis on understanding the phonetic basis of written language interesting, as, of course, a large proportion of the world's population learns to read a language without phonetic elements (my recollection is that age to literacy is similar regardless of the conceptual underpinnings of the written language, and that comparative studies on the effect of different systems on later cognition found no difference, but I'm very far from being an expert on that.)

I've never heard any linguists say anything good about teaching "phonics" either. That said, written English is totally straightforward, and nobody should have any trouble with it if they speak Latin (both early and modern), Greek, Old French, Anglo-Saxon (Proto-Germanic would probably help), Middle English, Anglo-French, some old Scandinavian languages (medieval Danish is probably very helpful), a bunch of Celtic languages if you care about place names. There will still probably be another 1000-3000 words in your vocabulary that would be easier to spell if you knew yet more languages, of course. But really, after all that, the spelling of about 95% of English words should make total sense!