moominmolly: (Default)
[personal profile] moominmolly
A neat article on parents who encourage their kids to learn lots, early. Let's hear it for just hanging the fuck out.

Yesterday, she helped me pick out birthday cards for her cousin Christopher, who's almost a month older than she is. But then she suggested a better way to wish him a happy birthday: "Send a email Kissafer? Send Kissafer birthday a email Kissafer?" Dude, I know she likes typing on the computer, but I didn't know she knew what email did.

Also, when I asked her in the parking lot of the store what she wanted to do when she get home, she told me "Natalie read in couch? Natalie read and snuggle in Mommy and Natalie's couch?" READ AND SNUGGLE. Yes, little girl, we can go home and read and snuggle in our couch.

Date: 2007-10-30 01:25 pm (UTC)
ext_155430: (Default)
From: [identity profile] beah.livejournal.com
"Natalie read in couch? Natalie read and snuggle in Mommy and Natalie's couch?"

That is so cute it makes my uterus ache. Ow!

Date: 2007-10-30 01:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] moominmolly.livejournal.com
I like that it was our couch, just me and her.

Date: 2007-10-30 01:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] metagnat.livejournal.com
Read and snuggle sounds like the perfect morning to me.

-E

Date: 2007-10-30 01:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] moominmolly.livejournal.com
To me too! Unfortunately, by the time we got home, she was more interested in running up and down the stairs. :)

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Date: 2007-10-30 01:32 pm (UTC)

Date: 2007-10-30 01:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] msdaisy.livejournal.com
My friend Lisa calls it "flashcard abuse". I'm with you - I vote for more read and snuggle and run around the house and hanging the fuck out.

Date: 2007-10-30 02:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparkymonster.livejournal.com
Apparently when I was a wee starkeymonster, I demanded flash cards. My brother had them for learning something in school, and I said I wanted them. Also, they had to be "mouse cards". My mom made some kind of age appropriate mouse cards for me.

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Date: 2007-10-30 01:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catling.livejournal.com
I just finished reading that article about half an hour ago while nursing K. Excellent article and backs up my general notions as a parent, huzzah. Kind of scary what people will subject their children to in an attempt to give them a scholastic edge... flash cards for a three month old?

I'd rather play with her and read to her, the concept of instituting some sort of rigid regime of learning is exhausting and anathema to me.

Date: 2007-10-30 01:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fanw.livejournal.com
With you on the baby einstein movement. Of course, I'm not a parent, so everything is with a grain of salt, but I think those parents are missing the importance of exploration. If all they emphasize is memorization, they are going to have a perfectly adorable toddler-bot, but one who has no self-motivation or curiosity. Curiosity, not knowledge, is what drives science!

Date: 2007-10-30 04:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mactavish.livejournal.com
Recent research shows that smart-baby videos inhibit language development (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1650352,00.html). It's interaction and exploration that do the trick.

Date: 2007-10-30 02:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gretchens.livejournal.com
Flashcards. *shudder.* We're big hang-the-fuck-out people as well.
I totally agree with this sentiment, too:
"And, as with so much in life, the kids whose parents worry about this area the most tend to be the kids we need to worry about least."

And on technology, we've been Skyping with my sister in Colorado every other week or so, and Ingrid is now getting it, but sort of over-generalizes, as she tried to sit in Kate's lap on Sunday. I guess if your aunt in the laptop is waving to you, blowing kisses, and talking, why couldn't you snuggle up?

Date: 2007-10-30 02:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] moominmolly.livejournal.com
Snuggling the laptop: AWESOME. That is great. :)

Date: 2007-10-30 02:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dancingwolfgrrl.livejournal.com
I love "stimulating but generally laissez-faire environment." Also, who the hell has the time for that? Also also, if vocabulary predicts academic success, your kid is going to be just fine :)

Date: 2007-10-30 02:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] moominmolly.livejournal.com
I am actually the opposite of worried about whether she's going to turn out fine. I hope that's not a problem. :)

And I love that description, too. I like that kind of environment, myself!

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Date: 2007-10-30 02:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pekmez.livejournal.com
yay for hanging the fuck out. er, and talking, and doing all the other
things that are part of that, that produce a little girl who wants to read and snuggle in mommy and natalie's couch and can say so. :)

Date: 2007-10-30 02:35 pm (UTC)
ceo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ceo
Benjamin has a set of flashcards that got passed down to us. We never use them unless he asks, not least because they're weirdly both too simple and too advanced for him.

I'm convinced that, 15 or 20 years from now, some evil overlord will send out the activation signal and everyone who watched Baby Einstein videos as kids will suddenly turn into his army of drooling minions.

Date: 2007-10-30 02:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] moominmolly.livejournal.com
It's not so much that I hate Baby Einstein videos as that I believe that trying so hard to push your kids down a particular life path before they're fully-formed as little people is bound to lead to unpleasant conflict and discovery down the road. That said, I always like a good drooling-minion-army image.

Date: 2007-10-30 02:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] signsoflife.livejournal.com
Some comments:

I'm not an anthropologist, but I do find the theory that our intelligence evolved to cope with complex social situations compelling; and my *intuition* is that challenging a child on an appropriate level socially is going to spark the development of an interconnected intelligence much more than rote memorization ever could.

I'm still sort of stunned to report that I *am* a teacher, and I believe that in my students I'm regularly confronted with the consequences of an entire educational system which has systematically rewarded them for rote memorization. Many of my students have never been challenged to integrate ideas in any significant way (and the smartest students have never been challenged at all, but that's a different issue.) It makes me want to kick things.

(So does the stuff about the effects of inequity.)

"It has never been able to afford rigorous scientific studies to document its performance." I find it deeply ironic that a program alleging to increase intelligence eschews science. My experience it that most people -- even very smart people -- are somewhat contemptuous of the scientific method; witness the number of "amusing" "duh" comments in re. scientific studies which confirm our intuition or political positions.

I know my parents took me in for an IQ test when I was pretty young (maybe kindergarten), for the purpose of getting me into some kind of gifted program -- based on the fact that I never attended such a program, I assume I "failed" the test. Make of that what you will in re. late bloomers (says the 33-year-old first-year.)

I find the emphasis on understanding the phonetic basis of written language interesting, as, of course, a large proportion of the world's population learns to read a language without phonetic elements (my recollection is that age to literacy is similar regardless of the conceptual underpinnings of the written language, and that comparative studies on the effect of different systems on later cognition found no difference, but I'm very far from being an expert on that.) That puts the wholly inappropriate and liminally racist comment about Austria having many more Nobel prize laureates than Japan in a different light, too. I realize it was meant as a throwaway comment on superbaby syndrome, but it really rankled.

I'm just going to nod for a minute.

Date: 2007-10-30 02:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] moominmolly.livejournal.com
Yeah, that bit rankled me too (unsurprisingly). And your note about people who say "duh" to studies confirming their intuition or belief system ... yeah.

I find it deeply ironic that a program alleging to increase intelligence eschews science.

Well, from what I've heard some teachers say, that puts it unfortunately in line with a lot of K-12 schooling in this country. :/

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Date: 2007-10-30 03:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] devichan.livejournal.com
My older daughter didn't learn to read until age 6, even though we read around her and to her all the time. I'm sure that would give some people conniptions, but we found out something with her, something I wonder if these parents would even consider trying:

If we let her do things in their own time, when she decided to do them she did them like a pro. Dropping the paci? On her own, age 8 months. Dropping nursing? From twice a day to none in less than a week. Potty training? Nothing to complete at age 35 months in less than a week. Reading? Nothing to second-grade level, less than four months.

Painless. Easy. No muss, no fuss, no agony. She never felt like a failure, which is good because she is a complete and utter perfectionist. If we'd put pressure on her, she'd be in counseling now!

Now we're adopting that same play and have fun philosophy with Foxy nine years later. She still has a paci she likes, but she uses it more like some people chew on pencils. She tapered off nursing rather than dropping it cold. Potty training may be a longer affair. But I refuse to make her and myself miserable.

Also, N regularly makes my brain melt. If you hear a shlurping sound around her for no apparent reason, it's that she's absorbing brain cells from my brain several states away. The sound is the brain cells integrating in her head. You'll know I just read a journal post. Read and snuggle... wow. :) :)

Date: 2007-10-30 04:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dilletante.livejournal.com
shoot, does this mean we can't get her a "brachiation ladder"? :)

Date: 2007-10-30 04:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] entrope.livejournal.com
About flashcards: a few months ago, we got Simone some touch-and-feel flashcards of farm animals to look at on a long drive. She really really loves them, but she views them as unbound touch-and-feel books. Of course, we're ignoring the "talking points" on the back, as well as the naming of the object in four languages...hmm.

Date: 2007-10-31 01:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] redheadedmuse.livejournal.com
I was going to say, both my kids and [livejournal.com profile] sandhawke's *love* flashcards. Which makes sense, because they're sturdy little pieces of paper with pictures and symbols on them in bright colors. They're like Tarot cards for kids, or little psuedo-books you can rearrange the pages in. I confess to not reading this article, and to never having deliberately taught my daughter much of anything, but I am totally pro-flashcard in the "give them to my kid and let her play" sense.

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Date: 2007-10-30 05:16 pm (UTC)
bluepapercup: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bluepapercup
I don't know what I think about all this, exactly, except that at this point in my life, I'm totally convinced about the "how many words your parents use equals how many words you use" is totally true. The problem that really troubles me is how to change society so that more people use more words and thus pass that on to their kids. *sigh*

I do think baby einstein stuff is complete crap, there's something creepy about it.

Also, just as an aside, my father used to read to me from the encyclopedia when I was young (2 or 3), and I learned all the planets, and their moons, and facts about them, and according to my mom, he used to show me off to friends by asking me to recite what I'd learned. Mom is totally horrified at this whole experience, and calls me his "trained monkey". As for myself, I don't remember a thing, except that I still have an abiding love of space, and for years afterwards, read the encyclopedia for fun.

Date: 2007-10-30 06:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ratatosk.livejournal.com
I don't know what I think about all this, exactly, except that at this point in my life, I'm totally convinced about the "how many words your parents use equals how many words you use" is totally true.

This is my experience, too -- an enormous amount of knowledge is what I think of as "inherited", largely at a very young age. It's stuff kids pick up through osmosis when spending time with their parents.

I think a second gigantic part of what kids get from parents through osmosis is habits and attitudes (like "books have information in it you might want, and reading the encyclopedia is a thing people do for fun"), not facts or skills.

Then there's all the stuff that when people ask me how I know it, I have occasionally unthinkingly answered, "because I was a kid once, weren't you?" to the absolute horror of everyone around me. Then I feel awful.

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Date: 2007-10-30 09:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dreams-of-wings.livejournal.com
Wow, I have so much to say on this.
Partly because I was homeschooled/unschooled, and left to play a lot, so I got to just hang out with my mom and other adults all the time. And I want to speak to this partly because I am intimately familiar with Glen Doman's program because my household did it too--we took my brother Kenny (who is profoundly brain-injured) to the Better Baby Institutes for years and it probably saved his life and definitely kept him mobile and also did teach him to read.

I might have to write a journal entry of my own, now. I think that's the only way I can say all the things crawling around my head on this topic.

Date: 2007-10-31 03:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] moominmolly.livejournal.com
Wow, interesting! The article had made it clear to me that the program was definitely beneficial to kids like your brother; I was a little sad that the article didn't have more to say on that, actually, but it wasn't the focus. Anyway, I went to public school and now that I'm investigating school options for my own kid, I find myself completely fascinated by different people's educational theories and experiences. Which is all to say: I'd TOTALLY be fascinated to read that post.

Date: 2007-10-30 09:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] intuition-ist.livejournal.com
As someone who spent her childhood in a very poor household in a rural part of the country, in a time before VCRs, DVD, and the Internet, I could have wished for a little of the Baby Einstein action. My parents have distinctly average intelligence and vocabularies, and I often felt like a cuckoo in the nest. Perhaps a little more active encouragement and intellectual stimulation while I was young would have made a difference.

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