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Date: 2012-05-22 05:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-23 02:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-23 05:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-22 05:53 pm (UTC)Interestingly, I think my best example is in abortion. Since I believe that consciousness is more important than life, and while I do think that *life* begins just about at fertilized egg, I don't think conscious life begins then, and thus I'm fine with most abortions. It doesn't take much more ethical wrangling for me than the fact that I'm not a vegetarian. However, I can completely imagine believing that even a fertilized egg has, say, an immortal soul. And from there, I can completely imagine believing that it is wrong to kill anything, no matter how undeveloped, with an immortal soul. So I get that side of the argument, when that's the other side. I can put myself in those shoes and see how MY side of the argument would be horrifying, if I wore those shoes. Now, the people who are clearly assigning an immortal soul to a fertilized egg and valuing that HIGHER than the immortal soul they view women as having. That seems so hopelessly internally inconsistent with their OWN viewpoint, that I can't take it seriously. I cannot imagine being a person who says that a 2-6 celled organism's soul is MORE important than a grown woman's soul. Obviously, these are not the only three positions to take in the abortion debate, but it's the example that came to mind.
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Date: 2012-05-22 05:53 pm (UTC)- My wounded ego. Triggers of childhood trauma. Exhaustion.
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Date: 2012-05-22 06:19 pm (UTC)Then I try to pull apart where that emotion comes from. Why am I feeling combative, self-righteous, angry, betrayed, etc....
Once I can think through what is feeding into my emotional state, I start working on my underlying assumptions about the other person's point of view, figuring out where those assumptions come from, which ones seem verifiable. And then I challenge those assumptions.
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Date: 2012-05-22 06:22 pm (UTC)Therefore, the best thing I can do to improve the situation for perspective and clear thinking is to GET those things, if I can. Stepping away from the conflict for a moment, affirming shared overarching goals, stepping back from the topic to have a meta discussion about tone or timing ... these can give me the space I need to be more productive.
CAN, that is. They don't always, but it never hurts to take a deep breath and get a little space in any case.
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Date: 2012-05-22 06:26 pm (UTC)- being in lizard brain/emotional response, for which, generally the cure is time and/or off-loading. (said off-loading can be terribly tricky to manage, but often oh so necessary.)
what i think i'm saying is that my ideal reaction response goes something like this: react!, take a deep breath and notice reaction, evaluate needs ("can i think clearly about this now or do i need to allow myself to sob or rage about it first?"), sob or rage as necessary, think clearly (and see things from another point of view)
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Date: 2012-05-23 03:05 pm (UTC)Hah - I'm trying to learn to NOT solve this problem with sheer force of will, since that is my kneejerk response to most problems. :) It feels like the sort of thing that could be more easily moved if I had the right levers and handles.
sob or rage as necessary
This is an interesting one that I'm exploring. :)
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Date: 2012-05-22 07:29 pm (UTC)Knowing that I'm right. :)
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Date: 2012-05-22 07:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-23 12:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-23 01:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-24 08:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-22 08:22 pm (UTC)Also, David Foster Wallace. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178211966454607.html That speech summed it up really well for me. Those little acts of meditation in the grocery line, or whatever, do a lot to remind me that my perception is not actually consensual reality.
Bringing the results of that meditation to in-the-moment emotionally-heightened conversations isn't easy. I really AM at the center of all my experiences and I don't experience the immediacy of someone else's emotional responses, but I'm only human and trying has got to count for something. I hope.
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Date: 2012-05-23 02:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-22 08:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-22 09:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-22 11:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-23 12:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-23 02:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-23 03:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-22 09:52 pm (UTC)but when i'm in the middle of it? try to find something we *do* agree on (which is why i don't try to argue with ideologues of the opposite persuasion). deconstruct the argument by going one level up ("why are we having this argument?" rather than continuing to argue). try to figure out what the results of *not* having this argument would be.
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Date: 2012-05-22 11:53 pm (UTC)I usually find deconstructing the argument to be helpful at moving towards understanding, resolution, or compromise - underlying issues and assumptions in support of the apparent argument are often like keystones holding up an otherwise weak and unstable position. But it's generally only possible if your opponent/s are also interested in participating in that and holding these things up to the clear light of day.
If someone is highly resistant to attempting a rational analysis of the situation, I can recognize that their emotions are, on some level, blocking that in defense of an emotionally-dominated perspective. But in my experience they're also usually more likely to treat many aspects of the apparent issue from a more dualistic perspective (and therefore see it as intractible, like the ideologue) than I'll see it. So there are ways and ways of holding onto a position, if that's an overarching intent.
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Date: 2012-05-23 03:01 pm (UTC)Deconstructing the pieces of the argument can totally be useful in helping you understand where the other person is coming from. What else do you do, and what is your personal work to get beyond the issues we all face in this area?
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Date: 2012-05-23 09:07 pm (UTC)Though I think it's also pertinent to your question in a sense, because my natural tendency is to want to deal with a situation as soon as possible - even though I've learned from experience that in the heat of the moment is quite often the worst time when things are charged and complicated enough that there's no way to get to the roots of the problem in a matter of minutes, or even hours.
So I guess if I've learned something analogous to what many of the other commenters are saying here, it's that taking time to step back and breathe is totally helpful, since pushing to continue the argument only ever makes it worse in such situations. And honestly, I am *much* better at being able to do that. Disengaging instantaneously is still difficult (because I can easily feel shut down/cut off), but taking a minute instead of an hour is a big improvement.
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Date: 2012-05-29 02:30 pm (UTC)This is the kind of work that everyone has to do, and that's hard for *everyone* - the reason it was on my mind last week is that I saw so many people having trouble with it, all around me. And yet, despite its importance, nobody ever talks about it. Maybe talking about our struggles really does lessen them, a bit - for me, knowing that everyone struggles with something makes it easier to acknowledge and overcome my own barriers, because I'm less ashamed and/or angry.
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Date: 2012-05-29 01:06 pm (UTC)http://peterbregman.com/do-you-know-what-you-are-feeling/
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Date: 2012-05-29 01:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-29 02:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-23 02:58 pm (UTC)Your tactics are really good, though - all of them are useful and would be good to keep in mind.
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Date: 2012-05-23 12:18 am (UTC)What hinders me most, is lack of respect for the other person. Assuming that I am the only rational person in the discussion. Assuming that the other person isn't interested in truth but only winning. Assuming that it's a waste of effort to be generous to their point of view because they will just take advantage.
Wife to me: "You don't trust me when I say X."
Me: "You're right, I should trust you more."
Her: "I doubt that will happen."
Me: "I didn't say I would, I said I should."
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Date: 2012-05-23 03:02 pm (UTC)Ouch. I have definitely felt that one in myself, too.
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Date: 2012-05-23 12:48 am (UTC)The trick seems to be to remember to take that first deep breath, and sometimes count to ten in my head. The rest has come with practice.
What hinders me? Really truly honestly? Wanting to be right. Usually about things that don't have a "right". (siiiiiiigh)
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Date: 2012-05-23 03:03 pm (UTC)Yeah, me too. That, combined with not wanting slights on my character, usually around things that are not slights on my character.
Did you ever read _Mindsight_? I think you might find it interesting.
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Date: 2012-05-23 01:52 am (UTC)This seems to help me, though I don't know how it sounds to the person I'm talking to.
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Date: 2012-05-23 03:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-23 01:59 am (UTC)I don't know that I have much of a toolbox for dealing with conflict *in the moment*, when it tends to be physiologically unpleasant. But I am working to adopt a more useful set of framing beliefs relating to conflict, and I hope this will propagate to more useful behavior in conflict situations. E.g.:
1) People are people. They're the protagonists in their own story; I'm not. They should be understood on their own terms. Most people are generally trying to do things that make sense and advance their agendas.
1a) The frame in which those things make sense, advance agendas, or are consonant with some set of values may be utterly opaque to me -- but that's a failing in me, not in them.
1a1) The opportunity to expand my own horizons and understanding by coming to understand others' viewpoints is a privilege and a gift; conflict gives me a chance to experience it.
2) Conflict is no fun -- but I have found that if I am willing to live in the tension for long enough, and force myself to take the other's point of view seriously, and view it not as an opportunity for defensiveness but as an anthithesis to my thesis which are both, together, crying out for synthesis -- we come up with better ideas. And I believe in the better ideas. I believe in them more than I believe in being defensive or being right. At least, sometimes I do.
2a) This works best if there is some common goal or value that I can remember we both hold, some shared institution whose interests we both safeguard. But in many conflict situations, this is in fact the case. This lets me think about it, not as us fighting, but as us working together through the sort of rough patch that does sometimes come up toward a shared goal. (It helps, of course, if they think the same.)
3) And, ok, because I'm catty like that, I remember as an object lesson people I know who are very poor at conflict, who respond maladaptively, and the outcomes of those responses, which incentivizes me to not be like that.
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Date: 2012-05-29 02:32 pm (UTC)Hah! Errrr, yeah. That one is a good motivator for me, too. :)
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Date: 2012-05-24 05:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-29 02:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-30 04:26 pm (UTC)it's especially difficult for me to get it out when i'm right.
i don't really argue with anyone, anymore. my exhusband and i argued a lot. mainly because he was always wrong. but... yeah. i haven't really argued or had anything beyond slight disagreements with anyone in almost two years now. go figure.
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Date: 2012-05-29 10:13 pm (UTC)My primary tactic is to try to separate what is observably happening from my stories about what it means and to remain curious about whether my stories are true.
Sometimes, it works for me to be a little bit silly: I make up names and sometimes images for particular fears or stories that I struggle with, which both helps me recognize them and detach from them a little bit.
Other times, it works for me to engage my rational self in meta-analysis -- not for its own sake (although occasionally it's useful!) but because figuring out what Satir mode the person is using can help me take a step back from "ow, ow, ow."
Things that stop me from doing it: feeling like a core aspect of my identity is being questioned (my usual suspect: "I'm a good person") or being reminded of a super-painful pattern from my past and reacting as though it's happening in the present.